Nov. 2, 2022

E135 - Jamie Grumet: TIME Cover Breastfeeding & Attachment Parenting

We have a wonderful conversation with Jamie Grumet, known for her controversial breastfeeding cover on TIME magazine, now at its ten-year anniversary. With a background in anthropology and theology, she is the author of Modern Attachment Parenti...

E135 – We have a wonderful conversation with Jamie Grumet, known for her controversial breastfeeding cover on TIME magazine, now at its ten-year anniversary. With a background in anthropology and theology, she is the author of Modern Attachment Parenting: The Comprehensive Guide to Raising a Secure Child, its introduction by Dr. Sears and foreword by Alanis Morissette. Jamie shares her insights on parenting using these methods while educating us about other cultures, adoption, breastfeeding, and children self-weaning at older ages. We find out what she went through going viral in such a contentious way at a young age, and discuss the psychology of what this represents; mothers judging mothers, puritanical ideals, and sexual repression. Does she regret the photo session? And we talk about what we can do to educate future generations. Our own adult attachment styles are analyzed too (secure, anxious, avoidant, etc), as we wonder how we were raised. Spoiler alert: we know a lot about each others’ childhoods because our parents were best friends in high school, so Jamie is like our honorary little sister! We hope you enjoy this interesting discussion and support Jamie’s wonderfully inclusive and accepting book, currently sold on Amazon!

Watch this episode on
00:00 – Introductions
03:00 – TIME magazine
05:30 – Attachment parenting (AP), Dr. Sears, attachment styles
10:45 – How to form healthy attachments
12:30 – How we were raised, co-sleeping, night doulas
19:10 – Primates, infant mortality
21:30 – Partners, monogamy
23:45 – Unable to breastfeed?
29:20 – Backlash, judgement
31:00 – Controversy, WHO and AAP recommendations
34:05 – Self-weaning, long-term psychology
36:00 – Bonding, breastfeeding, adoption
43:45 – Haters and Religion
47:30 – We’re modern, evolved; parenting give and take
50:50 – (Dream Dinners Advertisement)
52:30 – Sleep training, cry it out, discipline
1:01:35 – Regret TIME cover?
1:07:00 – Our parents, attachment styles
1:13:40 – Predatory marketing of formula and water
1:17:35 – Rape culture, sexual repression, hypersexuality
1:24:50 – Conclusion
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Jamie Grumet: TIME Cover Breastfeeding & Attachment Parenting

00:00:03 - 00:05:00

PodFix. This is Walter Cronkite. Reporting from the place where news happens, Mouse and Weens. Good evening and have a pleasant tomorrow. We set a mouse and Wayne set a message to the mountain Wayne cinemas and we set about 7 weeks and months of reading cinemas and reason about the incredible things and nothing we've ever seen. Hello, everybody. Welcome to mouse and weems. We're back again. Another window. Yay. There's weeds over there. With a beautiful palm frond behind her. If you happen to see us on YouTube and I'm upstairs in this weird lighting, but that is okay because we have an amazing guest with us. I'm so excited. Yay. Jamie Morjig Grumet. I'm gonna throw your maiden name in there too, because that's how I know you. I know. That's so funny. Hi. I really wish I never changed my last name. Really? Yeah, I'm stuck with my ex-husband's last name on everything I've ever done. So this is the part. I know, yes, and now you're married again, and you could potentially change it, right? I don't know. I could, it's just that my books and everything I've done is in my ex-husband's last name. I'm trying to convince my current husband to take my ex-husband's last name. So that we all have it. That is so on brand for you, okay? Because boys and girls and listeners, Jamie is a very progressive thinker and doer and you may know her from the, I guess it's infamous, famous, the cover of TIME magazine from 2012, where she is standing up, breastfeeding her son, who is standing up too. It was kind of a big deal back in the day and still is because now at the ten year anniversary of that, and an author, too, that has since spawned a book. I'm going to hold it up for our camera here called Modern Attachment Parenting, and I don't know if you can see all my tabs, but I read a ton of it, and I made little notes everywhere, so but yeah, let's jump in and the reason we're having Jamie on two is because she's like our little sister. Because my very best friend in the world growing up is her sister. So yeah, it's just so fun to hear a family voice and my ears. So Jamie, will you tell me? Yes. Sorry. No go for it. Stepped on all of you. But I want to, you know, people are going to be really curious about the Time Magazine cover. So what happened with that? How did that all come to fruition? It was kind of by accident. I started a blog to keep really all of our friends updated on the adoption process of our oldest son. Who was adopted from Ethiopia. And I didn't really understand how blogs worked back then. And I didn't realize that we had more people. It was like a blogspot vlog from back in the day, I don't even know if people remember those. But I didn't realize that people were reading it that I didn't know. And I must have mentioned something about Arab nursing, which was just really common in our family as you guys know. I mean, I was breastfed for until I was 6, I think. And so I didn't think anything of it, but all these women started talking or making comments and really were struggling with feeling like they were being ostracized for their breastfeeding choices. And so I just started talking about it more because I didn't realize that it was such a problem socially in this country. And because of that, time found me. And then asked me to come and pose potentially for a picture inside of an article on doctor Sears in Time Magazine. And there were multiple families and I think only one was going to be chosen for the picture to I didn't think we're going to get picked and it really wasn't supposed to be a cover of photo. Wow. Because yeah. So that's amazing. And how old was your son at that time? Three. Okay. And did that year old? Well, yeah, the thing everybody in my family is except for me. I got my grandmother's gene. That's true. So the perspective. So you're a little more petite.

00:05:01 - 00:10:00

I'm only 5 four. And I think, yeah, at least 5 9. Yeah. Something like that. You guys are the same height. Yeah. Although, I've been shrinking and now down to 5.7. I was 5 8. Oh no. I think Ali's, I think my sister is down to 5.7 as well. She came to visit the other day and I was like, oh, it's a little fawn. Sweet alley. I know. I know. It's so cute. So Jamie, will you explain what attachment parenting is? And so you didn't think anything of it, but when you did your blog, they came along and then did that create, first of all, what is attachment parenting and why was that so controversial? Was the cover? Did you start getting crazy responses from that? Yes. I mean, yes, oh my gosh, I think I have PTSD forgot. But I pass through the parenting was the term coined by doctor Sears. When the baby book came out, I think in 19 95, although in the 50s, attachment parenting was getting studied by John bowlby and Mary ainsworth, there's a lot of research on that. That was talking about attachment style. So really, when you were born up until, I mean, we always kind of have, we, as humans, need to attach. And so we make these sort of functioning attachments to each other. And so when they work and it's healthy attachment, so and you get that from your primary caregivers when you're first born. So those first few weeks of life are even extremely important, but for the first few years, you're making your starting to learn your attachment and who you're attaching to. So if that gets corrupted in certain ways, you can have issues with attachment. So there's anxious styles of attachment where you get very clean, you're very codependent, avoidant where you kind of, you know, those are the people who won't commit to a relationship when they're adults. So it does, so when you foster good attachment as a child, you typically become a better functioning adult with ways of being able to regulate by yourself or co regulate with other people better. If that makes sense. I took a test. You inspired me. I took a test and I what is it preoccupied anxious? So that's not, that's not the, but I can't figure it out. Joel and I were just saying that mom was a great parent. So I don't know what happened. Could something have happened later in life? Or is it usually attachment theory is that or attachment? So wait, attachment theory. Yeah, you tell me. Well, I mean, I, so my parents were attachment parents and I have attachment disorders as well. So I don't think it's no one's doing anything a 100%. And I think it's normal to have your world isn't perfect. So it's not necessarily even your parents. You could have had a traumatic, something could have traumatic could have happened to you as a child or maybe even like certain children even perhaps preschool does it to them or I'm more anxious. Now, and as an adult, I become anxious avoidant, but I think that that's for my experiences with adults. So I think it does, it can change. You actually can become traumatized and develop attachment disorders as an adult. But I don't, I don't quote me on that because I'm not a 100% sure. Yeah. Well, that's the thing with theories. A lot of these theories. It's like, how can you really prove that this causes that? And I mean, there's a myriad of reasons. We're born a certain way. We have certain wiring. We have certain chemicals that makes us who we are. Right, no, exactly. And I think it's just, I think it's pretty common. Even if your mom, it could have been, you don't know what it was. Like your mom was a great parent, but so was my mom, but there were definitely a coast left that she did every single quote unquote attachment parenting tool that Dr. Seuss has mentioned. And I still, you know, you still get kind of anxious. And think of how anxious alley was. To be a little bit more codependent. But yeah, but I think it really does, if you see children like a good example is the orphanages in Eastern Europe like Romania, they get a lot of studies on them and the children weren't being touched and weren't being taken care of in their needs weren't being met and they lost you notice that the kids weren't crying anymore weren't doing anything because that's how children communicate with their parents or their primary caregivers is they cry they for us to be picked up and when they aren't crying anymore it's because they've lost hope that anybody's going to come there for them. And so that's really, really cool. Yeah, and those children did develop reactive attachment disorder, which is an extreme form of an attachment disorder that you see primarily in very abused children or children that are in institutions like that.

00:10:01 - 00:15:03

Where nobody near touch them or held them and they do kind of lose the ability to function as a normal adult we see violent tendencies. There's a myriad of things that happen to them. Yeah, I can think of a couple of kids who I think were adopted from Eastern Europe now and grow up with my kids and they've had trouble in school. Very violent and yeah, just disregarded that because it's not the children's fault at all, but it's the parent who has taken that honor, the primary caregiver is taken that on really there's a lot of work that needs to go into mitigating some of those issues and sometimes they're lifelong. Right. So what is the primary healthy way that you feel that we do need to attach to our kids? What are some tips you can give people for secure? Do you call it secure attachment or what do you say when it's the best form of attachment? When a healthy passion is considered secure attachment and I think that I don't actually know one person who's perfectly securely attached. So I guess but we want to push towards that. So I think that the best ways of doing that are basically you need to kind of look at your child's unique needs. And as it's not your want, it's not you're not spoiling your child, but if your child, there's biological, it's communication that we have with even breastfeeding is a set of behaviors that we have for we're communicating. We're making eye contact with our baby when we're breastfeeding them. There's ways that we're attaching or we're communicating with them when we pick them up when they cry so that they are hungry if they're tired. And if some children are just way more needy than other children, they're high. I think even doctor Sears wrote about it, it's a high need child. Those children are really a lot of work, but meeting those needs is even more important because those are the children that typically have issues when their needs aren't met. And they're ignored or they try to, in the 1950s, especially they had, oh my gosh, the worst baby book came out around that time too. It was like the doctors. That's what our mom had. I remember it always on our shelf growing up. I actually called her before this interview to ask her how we were raised because I wasn't exactly sure. I knew that she had read that book. But I remembered her with Julianne since I'm the older sister, and she was very tender and caring with Julianne and so I got the whole story and she kind of did what you say to do in the book which I love, which is kind of just go with nature and go with your intuition. Yeah. And work with what you've got, but go ahead, keep telling us your tips. Oh, now that I know that's really it. I mean, it's not about breastfeeding or baby wearing. Doctor Sears created all of those sequences and tools and not rules. And he says that over and over again, people I think still don't really listen to that. Those aren't necessary things that are taught to your child, but they're helpful in showing those are some of those ways like holding your baby or keeping them closed or bed sharing with your baby. And co sleeping. Those are ways that we biologically are connecting to our children and those are really good ways to foster a secure attachment in them. But they're not necessary for it. Yeah, and then actually doctor McKenna, who was in at a Notre-Dame, he came, he did a huge co sleeping study that was at the time very controversial and now it's just kind of solidifies what everybody thought before, which is not hearing co sleeping, and he calls it breasts sleeping. When it's an exclusively breastfed baby and you're not under the influence of medications or drugs or alcohol, it's pretty much impossible for you to hurt your baby when you're bed sharing or co sleeping with them. And yeah, there's your baby is constantly breastfeeding at nighttime too. So when you're doing that, you are so in tune with your baby, your baby is actually citrate, I can go down to almost nothing. And your baby is listening to your heartbeat. It's the heart is sinking up with yours. You're breathing patterns. Are aligning. It's a lot of really interesting information that he found out. So anytime you hear about coastal being deaf, they're always generally the person didn't even want to sleep with their baby. They were under the influence of something they passed out on the couch. They rolled over on their baby to smothered them. And those aren't like, that's not what any co sleeping parent does. That's a totally different thing. Yeah. What about the husband if they're not as in tune with the baby? And they're in the bed.

00:15:03 - 00:20:09

Because that's what mom said, I asked her. I said, did we sleep with you? Did you co sleep with us? And she said, no, because your dad was so big, our bed was small, and he was such a sound sleeper. I really was worried that he was going to roll over and you guys, but she had a bass net right by the bed, and so that was what she did. And then so for me, she said, she moved me into a room with a crib, and that I was kind of like, just went with the flow, adjusted, didn't cry a lot went to bed, but Julianne was a little more needy. And she had to put a twin mattress on the floor in Julian in the nursery, I guess, where the crib was. And she would sleep there and hold your hand through the crib. And that was kind of her way of doing it. But she said she often just had to hold you up in a rocking chair all night. And she said you were just super hungry and you nursed all the time. She could not fill you up. So I think you're extra attached to mom because you were on the boob. The whole time, she said. Well, didn't Julianne win. She won the award for having like, she was a big baby, right? He was the biggest cast circumference in the whole hospital. That probably a lot of nutrients. Yes. Yeah. So, yeah, well, okay, so what you're supposed to do or they tell you now which is helpful is you put the mattress on the floor, baby rolls off. It's not going to hurt the baby at all. And then you can if you're worried about another person in the bed, you can always put the baby on the ends then. And then there's also other things you can put on the beds of the baby won't fall off, or you can use a co sleeper, which is now that's the I hated that thing. I got one and I just never used it. But it's kind of like a little hot tub attached to a pool, right? Yeah, yeah. To the side of the bed. On the bed. So if you want the bed up and you want it. So it's impossible to roll over on your baby. Your baby's basically right next to you. But for me, I noticed that he slept better when he was touching me. And then I also could just not wear a shirt and he could breath latch on and I got better sleep too. So would you consider doing that if you had another one? Yeah, I tried it with the littles when Toby first came home, my oldest. I was like all about it. I'm like, okay, we're gonna do this co sleeping thing. And Dave could not handle the noises. The gurgles, the wiggling, all this stuff, and he had just started a new law firm, and he needed his precious sleep. So it was just our understanding that I would just kind of get up and go into the baby's room when he cries. So I did not co sleep, but dang, did I rock that baby all night long and had it in my arms and it was just, you know, you're just trying to survive at that point. And to get sleep. I don't think it makes a difference to the baby. I think it makes more of a difference for the parents to be honest with that kind of stuff. 'cause you're still, no matter what, especially with your baby, you're going to be with them the majority of the night. So it's just, if you don't mind getting up every time, I think that's why a lot of people aren't having kids. It's a lot of a lot of people have like doula, which are not the new thing now, is postpartum doulas or kind of like kind of like having a nanny, but they're really there to help the mom. So they will bring the baby in to you and you can breastfeed that baby. And they'll bring you snacks and they'll let you go back to sleep. And then when the baby falls asleep, they'll hold the baby the whole time for you. In the middle of the fingers. Now, how do you feel about that? That would have been great, yeah. Well, how would that be? Oh my gosh. But then that's not really your mom, so could you, I mean, is it better? Yeah, so for so we're a social species just being primates. And so what you see is in like, if you look at any primates or if you look at any hunter gatherer type of or more village type human settings, it's not, I think that's the other problem that we have here is like mom is the primary caregiver, and it really shouldn't be like that. I mean, she should be the primary caregiver, but she should not be the only person only caregiver. And so with this, you have most people they throw them all into a mom group where we're all like, you're considered clinically insane. You have a baby, your hormones are there to protect that baby and keep that baby alive until it's 5. And we're born, we are bipedal. We have larger brains, babies come out way earlier than any other mammal. And so your hard wire and that's also another reason that we're semi monogamous too, like we're the only really one of the only species that is like that.

00:20:10 - 00:25:12

As a mammal because we have to keep this baby alive and so 5. That's the hardest time, like that's for our species to keep them alive and if you look in other underdeveloped countries, the mortality they call it the infant mortality rate, which is considered zero to 5 is really high. Wow. Yeah, so but because of that, you know, we have, you have moms that are just like really, they're primary caregivers, but they're tapped out. We're supposed to we're not supposed to be with a bunch of other moms that have babies the same age. It's like putting a bunch of crazy people in one room. Oh my gosh. We need our village. We need our grandmas and our aunties. Our sisters. Yes. A 100%. Yeah. Yeah, and one of my friends, she got, she tried to get to live in all different age ranges, even brought an elderly woman who was a part of Julia and so that she was kind of create that environment. But yeah, most of the time you see, you know, 12 year old little girls, and then the little boys too, but it's a lot of it is very, at the very much of a matriarchy too. A lot of little girls taking care of the babies, the little sisters or the other children in the village. And then you'll see ants, uncles, everybody. And they'll be wet nursing too. So you'll see you'll go over someone will nurse the baby for you if you're not around. It's not like a, that's not a stigmatized thing in most other cultures. Yeah. Which is really interesting too. So yeah, so mom gets a break. So, okay, also, we just I had a class today and it was brought up feminism in the problems in our society. Where does the man stand and how important it is for them to be equally involved or how involved should the man be? Do you have any info on that? I mean, I'm assuming pretty involved. I just logically want you'd want the husband to be involved, but again, because we are some I monogamous and children, like we do have the most vulnerable infant in mammals basically out of all of them. We're so helpless when we're born. Men are really supposed to come in and help protect and take care of this baby. And it's up until they're 5. So at that point, I guess everyone can go their separate ways if they want, but that's not really what our culture does, but yeah, but that's like hardwired in us. So men, if they're not present, that's really not a biological norm. And so I think that they should be really kind of it's hard because if you are breastfeeding and you're exclusively breastfeeding or man can't do that much and pumping is awful if you don't. If you don't have to do it, I wouldn't do it. Just because it is really hard on your body. I don't know. I would have been able to I felt like I had to come to an Aaron was in the nicu and I just remember thinking of all my friends who had done it for at least a year while they worked. And I was really kind of in awe of them because I was like, I don't know if I could do this. It's a different feeling than I just didn't like it. I really didn't like it. Yeah. You feel like a cow and B, it becomes this, yeah, mechanical, strange, it's not that loving and the let down and all the signals that the baby gives you and the bonding and it's so nice. It's such a nice sweet feeling. Yeah. And yeah, now what do you say to parents who can't nurse for whatever reason? And then I think you had something in your book about men can help with the baby wearing and things like that too, right? There is the skin to skin. Absolutely. Yeah, so they can absolutely. I mean, it really is one of the babies in newborn. You can pretty much expect the mom to be doing a lot as far as the beatings and everything goes, but the man can support them all. And I think that that's really really, really important. I mean, this is if you have a heterosexual nuclear family, which a lot of people don't anymore too, so it kind of doesn't. It doesn't apply to them. I don't want to send anybody, but yeah, but I think that I think men can, I mean, if you are pumping, of course, that can give the baby a bottle, but if you're not, he can baby wear, he can spend quality time just with you while the mom's breastfeeding. He can bring the mom's food. He can be present with the baby. I mean, there's a lot of things that can happen, or just something to do with a long sleep, too. Right. Right. So what do you both think will happen? There's the shifting paradigm of men becoming the primary caregiver as the woman goes to work. Is that going to screw things up for our society? I think in other countries too, I think Denmark or Sweden, men get maternity leave, just like women, and we are the only western country that does not get paid mandated paid parental leave.

00:25:12 - 00:30:07

We don't get maternity leave and we don't get paternity leave and it's just, I can't believe that. And where the world's richest country, come on guys. We have the highest in maternal mortality rate in the developed world too. I mean, yeah, it's really, really compared to the other countries too, it's a lot higher. So it's just, yeah, we're really, we should be kind of a disgrace in that way. And we can do a lot better. And if we did that, you know, I think it's 87% of women go into parenthood wanting to breastfeed their babies. And the majority of them at some point they've got those efforts are thwarted. And we want to figure out why that is and it's mostly social issues. Women are not given paid parental leave. They're not, you know, we're not success. They're given bad health advice. There's so many obstacles. And those are the things like, I don't care if you don't want to breastfeed, but the majority of women can breastfeed. There's very small population who physically can't. And that's obviously not their fault either. And babies will be fine, but it's economical to breastfeed. There's a we have a formula shortage right now, and because of that, we also have a human milk shortage. And especially Nikki babies, they need that to survive. You can't just you can't get formula to a nicu baby, they're stomachs aren't developed properly to digest. Can you tell me what that is? I'm sorry. What's in Nikki baby? Oh. Oh, neonatal intensive care unit baby. So those babies are born premature, or they have airborne with other problems. And so they really need donor milk too. And so right now we have a huge shortage of donor milk and a shortage of formula. So if we got those 87% of women who wanted to breastfeed to be able to breastfeed. We wouldn't be having shortages of anything too. So that would be, we would normalize probably human milk drinks a little bit more too, which is, I think, really important for us to do is just for a health care reason for our country. So rather than looking at it, looking at it more of the macro thing and it's like as a population we want to get our breast feeding rates up and then not make women feel bad if they choose not to breastfeed or if they can't breastfeed, but we want to make sure they actually are trying to meet their goals too. So why don't people choose to breastfeed is it mostly a situation of employment or they just don't like? Well, because it's almost 90% that do. So whoever doesn't, they don't have to if they don't want to or if there are some sort of like for whatever reason they like Queen Victoria, they were just, I was just reading this thing on her and she thought that breastfeeding was disgusting and it was during the 18 mid to late 1800s when that was going on and for whatever reason she felt like a cow and it was definitely the social thing and she didn't breastfeed any of her babies. She probably had severe postpartum depression. It looked like two, but her daughters because she had 9 babies. She just because there was no birth control back then. And she didn't really like babies very much too, but she liked how you got them. It was actually pretty funny, but yeah, but I guess that her daughters, when they had babies, they wanted to breastfeed them, and they had to hide it from her. And then when she found out she got furious with them and called them cows. Wow. So it's like, I know. She was an interesting lady, but yeah, I guess, you know, that's cultural. That's not for whatever, you know, if you get in your head for some reason that is off putting, you know, those are things that we should probably try to normalize, but it's not really our responsibility to make everybody if you think it's gross and don't breastfeed. So I mean, no one's trying to convince those people to do it. If you don't want it, you don't have to. So you must have been getting a lot of that messaging too when people saw you breastfeeding Aaron when he was so much older. And then even Samuel, when you adopted him, and then you nursed him too, to have him bond with you and bond with his brother, right? And what was that like having to field all of the hatred or the judgment? I mean, I can't imagine. So young, I was only 26 when it came out and I was just really confused and scared and that now I don't I really don't care. So I'm just, but even now I had an article just came out of Yahoo and for whatever reason that thing went viral and all these people were coming to my Instagram page and it's just I just didn't really care at this point.

00:30:08 - 00:35:01

I try not to read comments and they were everywhere when the time cover happened. But if I accidentally saw something or whatever, it really upset me and I didn't want to look at it just because I think it was just I was kind of paranoid at what people could potentially do. And now after I'm old and old kind of grumpy, I don't know. You're like, oh my God, go away. I don't know. You don't, these are just some random people. And why are they like, why would you spend that much time coming on someone else's page that you don't know to try to tell them something? They've already done ten years ago too. It's just, it was bizarre. I mean, it's not even worth talking about, I guess. That's how I feel about it. I don't really. I can't even tell you what the comments were because I don't remember. They don't affect me at all. Yeah, yeah, good. What was the main controversy just that he was older and for the people that don't know like me, what is the time when society tells you to cut off breastfeeding? That's really interesting. Why does it bother? Why does it bother people so much? Right. Well, yeah, I guess that because people sexualize objectify women and they sexualize women. So I think it was like a Madonna whore complex thing. And when babies are, I think that people got confused, especially back then. I mean, the marker of when to stop kept getting moved is that, you know, later and later. And what helped was the World Health Organization basically said that babies should be exclusively breastfed up to 6 months old, many people who are introducing solid foods. I think people got confused if that's when you're supposed to wean your baby and they're just saying that that's when you should only be getting breast milk and then at 6 months you deserve introducing solids. And allow and complementary foods, you can, and then your baby will primarily only have, you know, the menu nutrients for the first year is probably still going to be breast milk. But they said that, you know, put it at a minimum of two years to breastfeed during that time. Your baby will be eating food at that point too. But that was the World Health Organization's recommendation. And then the only and basically every other medical group was basically was saying the same thing except for the AAP. And I think the only reason for that was because of just social pressures, they didn't want to freak people out because we were so we're very sexually repressed here because we associate breasts with, I mean, their secondary reproductive organs. They're basically made for breastfeeding. That's what they are. But it's not like the whole body could be an erogenous zone too. But because breasts were so hypersexualized to they would say 6 months and then a minimum of one year and they just changed it recently to two years. So they're finally on board with us. And that's a minimum. So you can go beyond that as far as you want. They said, it's basically two years and beyond. So you were just at the forefront of the movement, basically. They just hadn't caught it to you at the time. Other people had definitely been doing it for a while. It's just that it was now it's just, I have noticed a huge difference with people now whenever you have a you have a baby and you get like a photo package, they add a breastfeeding to it too, which I was like, oh, that's kind of kind of cute and funny. And how much that changed because that used to be even people just posting her breastfeeding photos, which really helped normalize everything. That was considered like, they would get attacked for that, even when they had to a younger baby, so that age breastfeeding in public has definitely become more normalized and breastfeeding and allowing children to self clean has become a little bit more normal. I think as well. And when do on average when do children self wing? Happy gut wyler did a study on this. So the natural human weaning age is anywhere from two. She did this great study on it too. I studied primates and humans and did like it's a very comprehensive she's a great anthropologist a biological anthropologist. She looked at it. Like, rings too. It's, I think, one and a half to two is a minimum that she seems baby self wean all the way up to 8 years old. Wow. So, and that's the average. So you can see and they've never found any studies that if you like that breastfeeding past a certain age, does no, there's no medical association that's even worried about it, but they won't even do tests on it, but if there's basically nothing that says that it does any damage to your children.

00:35:01 - 00:40:03

So you can breast cancer. So basically, it's just haters that think it's weird because it's not, it's not normal in society. So there's no negative consequence to it at all. I mean, the people, what about psychologists? Do they say that forms too close of a bond and you should, what are the next? No, no, no, no. Yeah, no, none. I mean, no one's studied. And there's no like, I think that there were people who weren't psychologists, but were very excited to talk about the subject that they didn't know anything about like when the time cover came out. Everybody was coming out of the woodwork. And I remember this one woman was worried about accepting enmeshment with it. Your baby will be, I remember because I was the only one that was brushed really at all, but I mean, for definitely for past two years of my mom's kids and she said that I was the most independent one out of all of them. Like I would, I'd have good safety boundaries, but I'd be the one that would go and want to explore a little bit more. Or want to go off and I did. I was the first one, but my sister was breastfed for like two weeks and she wanted to live 5 minutes away from my mom until she was 6. So why did your mom choose not to do breastfeeding them with the first two? You had like so much younger and she got mastitis with my sister at two weeks and my brother at three months and the doctors back then gave her bad advice and told her she had to win. Because you can't ask that it's really the best thing to do is to take your antibiotics and breastfeed through it. You'll get you'll get better faster. Julianne, if you haven't had mastitis, right? What is that? It's when you get an infection and your breast gets completely engorged and is so, so painful to the touch and oh, it's the worst thing ever. Why does it happen? I don't even know, Jamie, you know more about this than I do. It's your milk sucks get clogged. It's just you have a bunch of you suddenly are making a bunch of breast milk and it's not like a super thin substance so it can clog up your ducks. And when something gets clogged it generally because so much stuff is getting creative and pushed out, it will cause an infection. It's extremely easy to get mastitis. Most women get it. My mom got it with me too. At that point, do you know what to do? So she just brought that through it. And I think she took antibiotics and she was, I think you have to take antibiotics. Do you feel like you're, I've never had it before, but apparently you feel like you're dying. It's the worst. I had a fever. I went into the shower and I was just trying to squeeze it out and just get it out of me and put like big cabbage leaves on my boobs at one point but just had to put ice everywhere. I was so hot and finally got on antibiotics, but and then trying to nurse it out, but then it was so painful. Oh my gosh. I have to give you guys credit you ladies credits are the same guys, but you guys ladies go through so much to have children that it's got to be an incredible bond that nobody else understands if they don't have kids. I think so. But I think you can bond to your baby even if you don't breastfeed, but definitely, yeah, motherhood. And adoption too, Jamie, you can speak to that, but oh yeah. Oh, that's weird, especially. I mean, people don't, I wish they talked about it more. But especially when you're adopting, we adopted out of birth order, but we also adopted, we didn't adopt a baby, which I think people have the same issues that they have when they bring home an older child. But it's different because it's a new baby, and you are holding it so much all the time that you probably do bond and it's a little different with a four year old. Like Samuel came home, Aaron was two and a half in Samuel was four. Almost four. He was a monster I was worth birthday. And he came home and he was like, oh, there's just like he was so cute and so sweet, but I was like, where do you think mom? Like, in my brain kept wondering when his mom was going to come and pick him up. Like I didn't, it didn't register that he was my child at all. And so that was a really strange experience because you're like, oh, no, no. You logically know that you've adopted a child, but it's totally different than having a biological child where you have to learn you guys both have to learn how to attach to each other. And in some ways, it's really, it's more exciting or it's more like it's really when it does start to happen. It's really rewarding because it's just like, I don't know, it's hard to explain. It's really you have to think, I'm like, okay, this is really interesting. And I kept thinking like, yeah, I kept thinking it was babysitting someone for a little while. And a lot of other adoptive parents like Melissa Faye green talks about it a lot. She adopted a lot of children internationally. I'm really tells kind of about the darker parts of it too, because it's not easy. And it definitely should not be like an option for infertility if it's not right for you.

00:40:03 - 00:45:03

It shouldn't be something. I'm really strongly believe in family preservation. Above all else, and then adoption really is a last resort. But yeah, we're so happy with what we love Samuel so much. And he's like, the coolest kid, but yeah, I think it took me breastfeeding him because he had been breastfed by someone. Up until probably the day of relinquishment or when he was in the orphanage. And so he could latch perfectly fine. So what was that? Like that moment of just like, okay, we're going to try this, was that were you nervous or confident? Yeah, no, I don't, I don't really, I just remember him being really curious about Arab nursing and that we had a Doctor Who was an option specialist. We hired to help us and he's like, do anything you would to your biological child to your adopted child and so we're like, okay, give us the green light to do that. And so I offered it to him and he latched on and Aaron was nursing too. So I had both huge and I'm really small. The biggest Ethiopian person. Ever adopted, probably. I don't know, it was just, I was expecting at least one of my babies to be kind of more of my size and it just wasn't going to happen. Yeah, error works kind of confused. I remember him being confused at first. And then it kind of, I think it helped all of us attach to each other because Aaron realized that he was equal to him. Like he wasn't just a friend coming over to play. It helped me attach to Samuel because it went through the physical motions and my brain started recognizing that it was my child. And then with Samuel it helps. It helps, I think, comfort him and give him something from home, you know, it was nice to be able to give him that. And then I think as soon as he started speaking English, he being himself. And I think that that's actually what my our international adoption specialist told us was going to happen. So it was a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. That is so cool. And I have to commend you for doing this. And in the public forum too, after your time cover and dealing with becoming a little bit hardened, not really hardened, but knowing how to field the answers and how to talk about hard subjects because yeah, I followed you since day one when you were cutting the public forum and you will post controversial things and discuss them and want them to be out there and you have the chops to do it too. You have an anthropology background. Is that right? Yeah, anthropology, physical anthropology, and then a theology background as well, which I thought was more, I think, after I moved to Ghana and I came back into whatever reason wanted to study theology, which has been oddly extremely helpful with everything that I've done too. So I'm really glad I pursued that. Wait, can you say that it's ethnology and what is that? Because I'm so sorry. I don't know. Theology. Study of religion. Theology. Church history and biblical studies. And then physical anthropology. So those were oddly very helpful for everything that happened to me, you know, after in my 20s, but at the time I was like, I don't know, I'm just interested in so I'm going to study these things. I know nothing I wasn't playing on doing anything with them. I love that. Look at you now. You have a 100% done something with them. And yes, I know. Oddly, I go. Well, and so religion comes into it too. I'm sure you've had a lot of pushback from different groups or support from different groups, who are the oh my God. What would you say? Generally. I mean, I think. I don't know. I honestly, there's every single group of people, so like very science minded people are super into attachment parenting and the ideas of it. And then there's also a lot of faith based groups that are as well, as long as people in all those sectors that are just kind of crazy too. And they're not like, it's not because in those things or that they're even experts in them because they're definitely not at all. But they associate themselves with whatever that interest is or whatever. And then they'll come at me, you know, very aggressively. So there's no specific group everyone. Yeah, I had this one. I think it was, I can't remember what group it was, but it seems like some sort of a Quaker group of people. I got physical hate mail. Through the. Oh my God. I would get weird stalker letters, but then I would get hate mail too.

00:45:04 - 00:50:04

One, this guy sent me the guy sent me an 8 page manifesto. And I opened it up and it was still married to my ex-husband at the time. The police officer and I was looking at it. I'm like, do you think there's anthrax in here? And he was like looking at it. Started reading it. Wow. There's like pictures in here too. And he sent me like, it was the weirdest thing I have it still. I kept it. And I was like, do you think she's a threat? Should we go to the police? And he's like, no, 'cause it was like repent or burn in hell. It kept saying over and over again. And he goes, no, I think he wants you to repent, or you'll burn it out. Oh my gosh. Straightforward there. Oh my God. Yeah. But it was like all these things like how men's hair should be cut and it was a certain way or how women's hair should be and how long it needs to be. And then it was very mentally ill kind of stuff, but I think it was an actual religious group. That said it. So it was something like a man has longer hair than past his ears that was homosexual. Everything that was bad was equated with homosexuality. So it was not the person was not well. But it seemed like it actually came from a group of people. So I'm like, there's a cool congregation. These people out there. Something for everyone and some are not so great. Jamie, are you how do you consider yourself? Are you Christian or atheist or. I consider myself, I guess a follower of Jesus, but I don't even like saying a Christian. And I don't necessarily, I'm not complicated creature, I guess. In that way. Yes. We are, yeah. I was just curious. It was a religious response to you not believing or something. But yeah, I don't think it was that. Well, maybe not. Yeah, I guess that person definitely associated breasts with because he called me a pedophile multiple times in it too. So yeah, yeah, no, those ones are, I mean, they're very concerning because you're worried about this person knows my address, well I will they come to my home and try to hurt me and so those I don't mind them, it's not nice to hear your pedophile, even if you know you're not one, but that was beside the point. It was more like the person is legitimately crazy and they might try to come and harm. So scary about being in the public eye and do you want to talk Joel? Do you want to talk a little bit about the book in Jamie? I want to hear I want to hear about that and make sure that when did that come out? I love the book. It came out the end of 2019, the rifle of the pandemic at quite a quarter time. Yeah, and then, yeah, and so can I just say that I want to point out it has a forward from Alanis Morissette, no, Atlantis is how you pronounce it. Alanis Morissette, and you guys have become friends. We have. What? And then, oh, I don't want to forget too. Also, Martha, Sears. Dr. Seuss wife, she edited every single she went through every single page of the book when I had my first draft and edited word for word everything with me. So it was a really cool full circle moment to have this beer family helped me. With my book too. And Joe for the listeners, what is the title? Sorry for the people listening to modern attachment parenting, the comprehensive guide to raising a secure child by Jamie grimmie. Forward by Atlanta marsa introduction by William Sears MD. So yeah. It's really good. So go ahead. Talk about the three B's. You're very vulnerable in the book. You talk about how you thought you might be a failure. I love the stories in between. It's super honest, and it's also very. Open and arms open and telling your readers to be open to whatever situation they're in. And encouraging. You can do it if you can't nurse, that's okay. If you have a nanny, that's okay. If you have to go back to work, that's okay. Work with, what works in your world, and use your intuition. And I love that. I love that so much. But thank you. Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's really important. I don't know. I just feel like we, you know, we do, we live in a modern society and just part of there are definite things that we have biologically that our bodies evolution takes is very, very slow, and it's just that we're hardwired still for, you know, thousands of years ago. And we've developed a lot of things culture changes really rapidly. And for all, sometimes we do have to give up something like cars are a good example of that.

00:50:05 - 00:55:05

We no longer have low impact cardio all day for walking. We have cars, which are great. And we don't want to not have them anymore, even though we need that low impact cardio. So with every culture, everything that we do in our culture, there might be a give and take for our biology. And so we've supplemented that with going to the gym or with trying to take walks and we have to consciously try to add that into our lives though or else we can get ill just from not working out and like the same thing goes with parenting too. We have, you know, there are certain biological things that are wired for our baby and for us and if we can't do that because our culture has changed, we need to figure out a way to mediate that. Right, right. Makes sense, yeah. We are sponsored by dream dinners, dream dinners is a wonderful food preparation service that is offering our listeners $99 off their first order if you enter mouse and wings, 99 at checkout. And let me tell you what that includes. This is a month's worth of meals, you guys, that is already chopped up prepped, it's separated for you. It comes in a bag with instructions and it goes in your freezer. So you can take it out and thought anytime that it's convenient for you and cook up a quick dinner 2030 minutes. It is such a game changer for us. We cooked dinners together as a family. We sit down and eat meals as a family. And it's healthy food. It's great. Quality food and you can modify it according to your likes and dislikes, you can give them special instructions. It's perfect for people who don't know how to cook. It's so simple. I leave instructions out for the kids or my husband sometimes. They have looked into it and you save 20 hours a month from shopping and prepping, and really the cost of meals is about 6 50 per meal, which is so cheap when you think about it. So much cheaper than a lot of the other services. So do go to dream dinners dot com, look up your location if you're within 25 miles of poway or San Marcos locations, just enter mouse wings 99, you will get $99 off your first full order and you will receive free shipping free shipping free delivery. They don't ship it. They bring it to you. Or you can go pick it up yourself, but it's so easy you guys do it. It is such a life changer. Enjoy. It has a little bit of something for everyone in here too. Sleep training, the cry it out thing. That's important too. I have so many friends having babies, and they do do the cried out thing. But maybe modified, I don't know, I didn't believe in it necessarily. It just hurt my heart too much to do it. But that was just my instinct and for some people it works, but you probably advocate for try not to let them cry as much as you can because that's communication, right? Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, there's just like, there's certain things that are not just they've studied it and we just know aren't good and that really is one of them. But there's the understanding like the reason that we're doing it is because when people are really tired and they're trying to get sleep and they have to go to work. So there's other ways of trying to foster good sleep or to try to calm your baby that won't traumatize. Him or her. And so yeah, so it's kind of like spanking too. It's just like it's across the board is not good for your kids. And not say like, you know, people, some people that don't even want to do it, do it sometimes, too. And they feel bad about it afterwards. I'm not saying. Trust me. It's normal. It's normal. That's normal, but we know that that's not that shouldn't be a go to thing to do and you should really try to avoid it. And there's other ways of creating discipline, like that's very healthy and helping your child grow and lead them into adulthood in ways that are really like, you know, you're not a passive parent that's saying yes to everything and allowing your child to run around. Going towards what's causing the behaviors rather than just trying to beat them into submission, essentially. Right. So what do you do with our time out considered okay? Like what are the good discipline? Aren't you a virtual thing? I guess it's like a kind of a loop with those, but I never did them. I don't think that they work at all. But yeah, a lot of people think that they're actually really like they negatively impact your child. I don't think it's definitely this. I don't really know any of the research that's on it. I definitely don't think it's the same as Spain cancer child. Yeah. For sure. Man, I was all about that. And what do you do when the place oh, I'm sorry, Joe. It was just a if then, if you do this, then this is going to happen. So almost teaching natural consequences, but just not letting them leave the spot and making them think about what they did.

00:55:05 - 01:00:07

I don't know. I've justified it out of time. The spanking was awful, though. I did that on the advice of a nurse. If there was something that was happening over and over and it was really bad, you have to do it one time and one time only, and they'll learn. And so I was like, okay, I got into this little lecture. And I spanked Elliot and instantly felt awful and started crying, and but he didn't do the thing anymore, and yeah, but it's still haunts me. I wish I hadn't done it. I'll let you cry afterwards. He was traumatized for that woman. I don't think it's a spanking that changes the behavior. I mean, maybe if you I don't know, I just think could still do, they still get beatings. Like, you know, there's a lot of my friends who were kids would do things and get spanked with a belt, but they would continue to be really naughty little kids. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I don't think it really, I don't think it does that the spanking for sure they know rewires the brain, so it's really negative. I don't think time out, I don't think they do. They're negative in that way, but yeah, that's like a big controversial thing apparently among parents is talking about those things. I just think consistency was really key for the boys. So if you said something like, hey, you can't do that or we're going to like we were at Disneyland and they were doing something. And you're like, we have to leave. My dad would be the king of being like, okay, and then keep giving us more and more chances. And we're like, okay. Out of manipulate you at this point. But yeah, if you have to like if you say you're going to leave, you have to follow through and leave. If you're going to do something, so take them away from whatever the thing is. And then they start knowing like, okay, she says we're going to leave or we're going to have to go to bed earlier or whatever. We really have to do it. We were really going to happen. I wasn't that great. So all the time. What I did do it, right? It's a lot of energy to follow through on that stuff. And sometimes it ruins the whole family plan if you have to actually follow through. Right. We're going to leave. I don't want to go yet. I'm not just Disneyland. Exactly. But that's what I've heard in my limited amount of parenting books or whatever I've read, it was that the parents really do have to stay on top of the consequences. And they're harder to implement when they're not just, you know, of course we don't want to slap and do it. But you really do have to follow through on what you say, which requires more effort. Is that? Yeah, yeah, it's not easy to have children. I remember sitting there with the boys must have been like 5 or 6. And people were trying to get pregnant again, which I'm doing now, but I was, you know, once you're really in the trenches too, and you're like taking care of. Actually, around 6, they get really easy. So I'm not even like three and four or somewhere around then and they were even going to the grocery store. How they never found me in the fetal position in whole foods crying. I don't know. And every part of these would not be like, I'm never going shopping with them again. And then we'd be there the next day. Going to I did that to my mom. I think shoe shopping. She swore, like I'm never going to the mall with your children again, because we were just trying to buy them shoes. And poor grandma. She didn't know how rotten they could be out in public. It was hilarious, but it was right in that prime boy crazy, yeah, anyway. They're not like intentionally naughty. They're just really curious and extremely active and have a lot of energy. And having two of them, like I remember paying it was curious and touched one thing and like, you know, the aisle with all of the essential oils that whole foods. She touched something, didn't need anything but was curious about it looked and I was walking and all of a sudden I heard the entire aisle clap. And I just didn't even look back and it just kept walking forward. Just look a couple things. Quick. Yeah, yeah, Trader Joe's once had a whole shopping cart. I told him not to go on this, I was like, don't go on the side of the drafting car go in the front or it's going to fall over on you and he didn't listen and sure enough the whole thing fell over on top of him and all like everybody was running and he just kept saying, I'm sorry, I'm sorry no one look how sweet he is. He's apologizing for that. And I'm like, yeah, because he knows to do that. Right. It was just what we got. It was a lot of work. And then I was like, I have anybody intentionally have kids. Don't get this. Now, after you're out of it, you're like, oh, there were so cute back then. I know. Yeah. And yeah, the bottom line too is we have to support each other, moms, no more judgment, and let's just all look at each other across that grocery store and give the knowing look, the knowing nod, instead of the scallion face. Well, you know what? And that's what was interesting when you brought up that you got a lot of haters when you had the Time Magazine or even on your blog. It seems like mothers from what I've noticed feel like they, they do it the right way and everybody else is doing it the wrong way.

01:00:07 - 01:05:01

So is that like a hormonal mother thing that you feel like you have to tell someone they're doing it wrong what is that? Mothers get so weird. That's guilt. So because if you notice, like if you get a lot of, if you talk about attachment parenting in college and a lot of people don't have kids yet, they're a lot more receptive to the idea. Once you have them, if you're saying something like, hey, this is really great or this works, and you're not doing it that way. People are getting defensive because they have to protect how they're raising their children. Nobody nobody wants to think that they've done, they've hurt their kids. And so I really understand that. It's a defense mechanism that's just like a gut reaction to wanting to protect your child and also wanting to protect the way that you've raised them and trying to prove that you haven't done any damage. And so they'll typically go the opposite way and attack you. That's interesting. Okay, thanks for explaining that. That was probably the best explanation of that I've heard. And it makes total sense, right? Because you don't have a whole book, you're gathering information. This is your baby, and you have to justify why you've done it. Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah, so especially if it's polar opposite than what you did, your natural reaction is to be like, well, that's terrible. I didn't do that. And so you're wrong. Right. And a lot of projection too. Yeah, maybe they see what you have and feel badly. You really threw yourself into the fire with this one, Jamie. This is I'm proud of you for agreeing to do that Time Magazine cover. I mean, are you glad you did it? Or do you look back and regret it, or I remember you said you didn't love the slogan, they put next to it, right? The title. Oh, yeah. I didn't like that. I didn't like the picture, but they didn't really like the picture either. We were that wasn't a picture that we necessarily posed for. It wasn't one that we didn't pose for, but we were fixing my hair. They wanted me sitting in a cradling arum, like a Maria laxon, and he was just so big. It was hard to cradle him, and it was his nap time, so he was nursing. My hair is just like thin. So they were trying to pull it back and they were trying to think my outfit. And so he was standing there, nursing, like getting really sleepy. So I wanted to tell you, just for the people that can't see, it's the title is are you mom enough? And Jamie is standing there and Aaron is breastfeeding, but he's standing on a little kid chair. So it shows. She's holding up for the viewers, but yeah, that's interesting why they chose that one. Why do you think? Yeah. I mean, definitely, they call it the most incendiary cover of all time. Yeah, I know which I was like, there's other God is dead might have been a little bit more than that, but that's okay. But how do they explain it to you? I mean, I really, I like everybody that we worked with the time I thought that they were all really honest and kind and how they explained it was the first one. There's one at time light box if you go there and look at all the photos, you'll see some of the other women who could have potentially been on the cover, the ones that they photograph the same day. And you can also see the code that was supposed to make it on the cover, which was, I was sitting down and he had fallen asleep at that point, and I was cradling him. But because of the way, they liked the fact that it was aesthetically the way that the composition of it where I was tall. And if you do look at other covers, you don't see. The other one I was sitting down below, there would have been too much empty space, I think. The tall the height of that one worked really well, and it was also really controversial. I mean, they're going to pick the one that it looks more dramatic. Right, but I do think a lot of it was the fact that it was like how the standing did. They liked that better, but yeah, the editors were in there and they definitely didn't like it at the time. I remember that. So it was just because we were we were just like, yeah, just trying different things. It wasn't that was not the shot that we were really looking. Anybody was looking for. You know what, Jamie, I just had a vision, vision. I had a vision that if you put out these books, there was a wonderful documentary series, which I don't remember the name, but it was called 25 up, and then 45 up in the documentary filmmakers followed this group of people all throughout their life and every 5 to ten years. I can't remember they would document how the people were doing. And it was just like an experiment to see how people are throughout the course of their life. How did they turn out what happened? And that would be so cool to find out your attachment styles working on your own children and if you released a book every so often and that would be really good. Because I'm looking into that now all the attachment stuff.

01:05:01 - 01:10:00

I mean, you really got me inspired and I'm looking at my own attachment styles and I've read a few books and so we want to now I'm having to trace back and go, what happened in the past that got me to this diagnosis of preoccupied anxious, it would be cool to see people. I mean, I've no different mixtures of attachment disorders, but I think I've ever heard that one. Oh, I don't know. Maybe it was just some hokey test online, but it was basically. You have to keep yourself busy. Is that what it was happening? Do you remember when you said it all? I think maybe you're hyper vigilant because whatever happened, you hang back and you're very aware of all the moods in the room and maybe, you know, I think my sweet dad, I love him, but definitely there was a lot of up and down moods and things. So maybe a kid that just happened to be, you know, you learned how to walk on eggshells and to monitor everyone. So you do that now in adult life. So you're preoccupied by why hasn't that guy called me? We just went on a date. How come he hasn't called me? He must be abandoning me. And the anxiety that comes the persevering about the certain thought or something. Yeah, like obsessive thinking and you're very vigilant of everyone's moods. In the room. So if Joelle, you scowl at me, but you just stubbed your toe, I would think it was my fault or got it. Yeah, no, that's the people who are using and the kind of codependency and anxious attachment is all kind of together. It does really come from your parents probably. That's what they found. Typically something happened. It's not making sense. We didn't have any necessarily negative. But like, yeah, for whatever reason, had there were certain things that had happened and the children really want to hyper please them. Or just make everything calm or like, yes. So make the water. I think the most common attachment disorder too. So. You don't have to talk about this if it's too personal, but what led you to your results of being more anxious? Did you figure out what that was? And you don't have to talk about it if it's too personal. Oh yeah, I think it was my parents. They both have qualities about them. I was talking about this with my therapist last week. So yeah, I think that they both, they had two different qualities where my mom sorry, mom. But she is more like a needy, needier person, and would need to kind of confide in me with things. She wouldn't Corona find me too much, but she would tell me things that I think would upset me. And then my dad's more of like farming, you know, has narcissistic qualities. But kind of more of a charming person. And I'd like to really big things really exciting thing. We are both really lovely, very loving people, too. It's not like you have to have a bad childhood to have an attachment disorder, but there's certain things that they definitely didn't a 100% do right just because of their own stuff. That I think, yeah, when they would just the way that they communicated with me, I would get very codependent or want of people please because of that. That was operating a lot, like guilt and shame to be these brene Brown triggered terms that come up all the time. So I mean, it sounds like you said the parentification is one, so the parents rely too much on the kid to listen to their issues. For sure. Yeah, she didn't do it too much, but it would be like, you know, with her dad died when I was two. And I remember her crying to me a lot. And like those are the things we know now that aren't really necessarily good for your children to see. Like, she needed me to comfort her. And I really, your children shouldn't be the ones to comfort you when you're in the little children, your adult children, it's a different. But even then, that's a whole different conversation. But yeah, I think it was, I think they got it. And I think they have it too, but they got it from like my grandparents and you were very, it's very much like keeping up with the Joneses or like very presentational. So everyone has to do everything right. And it kind of like, you kind of get scared into needing to perform. Correctly, or and it's about pleasing everybody else. Yeah. And looking good. I think that comes up a lot in my things. Looking good. Yeah. It's a lot of pressure. Yeah, yeah. So it is, like, yeah, I don't want people to talk. Yeah, it's a weird thing. But they deal with you going kind of public with stuff like this.

01:10:01 - 01:15:00

Were they embarrassed at all or supportive or I think I know the answer, but I'm not sure. Oh, they were so supportive, but I think it's also because that's another part of the very big grand everything he's doing something really impressive kind of thing. And so they understand that they also like they've also were very pro breastfeeding, but my mom would always like, even though she was, even though she had me till she was 6, I mean, she would kind of worry what people would think about things or she would be like, oh, well, she has a picture, although there was a picture of me at two years old over their fireplace in their bedroom of Nebraska. I know that picture. In fact, Jamie, do you remember this when I was just starting? I think I was a freshman in college. So you came along when ally was 13, right? 14. Close to 14. I was there too. And you were like, our little baby, and we were at the built in babysitters, and we just would play a doll with you and you were just the little sister. You're so much fun and so cute. Oh my gosh. Gerber baby, little model baby. You're so pretty. Still are. But when I said that, how many years is that? I guess that's four years. So you're four years old, and I did a report on watching kids. It was a child psychology course. And so I had to just observe you. So I just sat in a room and watched you play. And at one point, you came up to me and you said, well, I have a secret, and I said, what? And you go, I still nuke on my mommy. Do you remember this? Yeah, no, my mom remembers because she thinks it's the sweetest story in the whole world. Yeah. I don't remember doing it all. I had typed it all up and everything because it was like it was sweet and you were like, you know, but it's okay and I'm like it is okay and something I forget. But yeah, it was cute. So I wondered, was there any, oh, I'm sorry, I get so excited with my question. No, no, that's good. But because you said it was a secret, was there some shame that you might have carried from knowing that was nice? My mom must have felt, no, I didn't care at all. But I think she must have done something for me to think that she didn't want people to know or like certain people to know. Like maybe we don't tell people that because they might talk. Which must be so common, I would imagine that this happened a lot for parents who do this. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that there's like that embarrassment. No one wants to be laughed at and it's not personally funny about it. And you're just like a really normal thing. And I think people aren't used to seeing it too. So especially in older child, it looks different. I think we're all used to seeing babies breastfeeding at this point, but I think that you don't see it's not normal because you also don't breastfeed as the children get older. They're breastfeeding a lot like shorter spans. It's like you come over and it's sometimes it's just a comfort thing for like three seconds. Jump on and then you jump right off and they run off and go do something else. So there's just not a lot of there's no reason you see it. Babies are getting all their nutrition basically from their mom. So they're breastfeeding a lot more and a lot longer. And these are quick little things here and there for comfort. I mean, it's the nutrition still there too. It's back to the anthropological, oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, no. We just are such, like you said, a puritanical western society where it is interesting because that's sort of what we're talking about a lot in classes right now is just how we're founded on such a pure tentacle values it, but it's just a society. We just decided one thing is right one thing is wrong. But there's so many cultures that probably breastfeed, I'm imagining, right? Like culturally, oh, most cultures. You see a lot of Asian cultures, many African cultures. The only time you see breastfeeding rates dip in underdeveloped areas too is because of predatory marketing. Which is it goes against the who code, which the World Health Organization actually created a code because there's so many what gets me in these really impoverished areas without potable water. There are actual aggressively marketing. It should be this question I have better for you saying to have formula. In these areas and so the breastfeeding rates drop pretty dramatically. And also the infant mortality rate because of diarrhea go up like astronomically high too. They're like, how can this show? And then they're also trying to privatize water in those areas as well.

01:15:02 - 01:20:01

And that's a really, really bad. Nestlé was like, they have been known for years, like decades to do it. There's all these boycotts, but they just keep getting their people try to boycott them. I don't even try. My own everything. And I just keep getting bigger and better. I think they own Pepsi, but yeah, they're bottled water doesn't even come from the river or something. Yeah, yeah, Nestlé life. Everything. I mean, but and it's not just them. There's other companies that do this too. But it's just you would think that you're like, oh, these people don't have that much money, but it adds up and it becomes a big source of revenue for them. Which is, with a huge cost to it too, of taking basically taking people's lives. So it's just awful. But yeah, but in other cultures, especially in rural areas and places you see this, it's just a natural part of its support survival too. Like in Ghana, you would find the minimum age that you would see in the village that I was in. Meaning would be three. And that was like the minimum, and that was just like, and they would find if something happened with a mom couldn't breastfeed or if someone died, a parent died, they would find a lactating relative or a neighbor, someone to breastfeed up until three years old because it was such a such a big form of nutrition, especially protein for children there. Yeah, it's just like, so just because we don't necessarily need it, here doesn't mean that it's not beneficial or that it is harmful, especially, you know? But yeah, it's just, but over there, it's kind of a necessary thing. Yeah. Right. Wow. I know from the perspective of like, we just get locked into how we do things and so to see anything out of place, we really do, I think, as a society is thinking people, we need to just think beyond what we're used to just because we're used to it because society said it was okay. And as you just said, the under how they shifted the timeline, I don't know if it's the World Health Organization shifting it from one year to two years, but that's a perfect example of what we thought was strange was actually verified by scientists and everything else. So we need to just be more open minded in this culture as it was the American academy for pediatrics in 19 why, because with American, they kept it really short and they finally joined the rest of the world on their recommendations. But yeah, no, it's absolutely right. And I think it's a lot of it is disempowered patriarchal culture and rape culture that's creating this sort of we have a lot of sexual repression and hyper hypersexuality in our culture too. And I think the schism of those two things because we're like we are obsessed with sex. In a weird way, there's almost not even normal and I think it's because we're sexually repressed and because of that the schism, I think, great sexual pathology. And then you get a lot of things like that. Oh my God. Look at TikTok and then look at how people talk about sex being bad and look at our 13 year olds doing sexy dances on TikTok and it's like, it doesn't add up, you know? There's some repression that's gonna happen. And rape. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, and just like normalizing that. And then you see like the pendulum swinging the other way now and people are like, they're picking up on it, but like the way that it has to work too to like for people to point it out is like, it's ugly both ways too. It's just like, this isn't an easy thing, but it needs to be addressed and fixed in our culture. I think we're trying to now a little bit, but it's going to be a long road ahead. How do we? Jamie, you are so good at, well, you've written. Did you write about this anywhere? How do we fix that problem? I think how do we fix the world, Jamie? Please tell us. I think that the people need to talk about being abused if when they're ready for it and then we as a society need to believe them too. I know it's like, I think there's an issue with Amber Heard is a great example of that too, where it's just it's one of those things. They both were abusing each other. I don't think that there's any doubt at that. But that's been used really negatively to talk about women who lie about things and lie about their sexual abuse and I think it's derailing the conversation that we are having and it's not making it easier is like we just need to agree and support women who say that they've been abused periods. That's not just yeah, that's the only thing that we can do to move forward.

01:20:01 - 01:25:12

Otherwise, we're creating all these weird side conversations that are going nowhere. That's true. And maybe like in the educational system, we're still pretty puritanical there, right? Where we just talk about anatomy as anatomy and not like taking care of someone emotionally when you have intercourse or some of the other nuances I don't think they go there at all, right? Yeah, and I just learned too in some of the Scandinavian countries. They will teach their adolescence sex Ed in school includes how to be kind to someone how to talk to your girlfriend and support her, how to hold her hand, all the emotional stuff first. And then they get into the physical. There are so much that they're always ahead of us. Let me know. It's like lightbulbs. Come on, people. Let's do this. Yeah, they're considered happier. I don't know. They're just, they really figured it all out. But yeah, no, I think the other, yeah, the other one was never in seasons already. I don't know if I'm saying his name, right? And that one, I read the woman thing, and I was like, this doesn't really look like a rape. It looks like a bad date, but in the nuanced parts of that that need to be addressed, where it was like, if you look at it, she said she was uncomfortable, but she didn't say anything. And those are the things like he looks like a, he looks like a jerk. Like I would never want my kids to behave like him. But it also wasn't a sexual assault. He just was like, he's a dorky guy who suddenly got famous and girls wanted to go out with them. And I think that he took advantage of that. But not understanding, like, if someone isn't walks out of your you have a sexual encounter with the person and you think it's consensual, but she leaves in tears. Like, who wants someone to cry? No. That didn't make you feel bad. I'm assuming that should be like a negative emotion. And so it's just like understanding like, hey, this person doesn't seem that into this right now. Maybe I should pull away. Maybe I should check in on them. We haven't learned that if it's consent is like, yes, yes, no means no. I think we've all figured that out at this point after me too and everything, but it goes deeper than that. Yeah, now I just heard that they are starting to film selfie videos, couples are a guy and a girl. Like, yes, I agree that we are about to have sex. Yes, I agree. Okay. Everybody sees this. And the lock it up, you know? Stop and it saved for good and then everybody's protected, which seems so clinical, but maybe in this day and age we need that. I don't know. That seems really unsexy, but it also doesn't really work because if she decides halfway through, she doesn't want to anymore and he continues to consider. You can stop at any time. Right. So yeah, and that's the thing they try to teach, I guess, in college or high school. I don't know where they're doing this. I think college. But keep asking along the way, is this okay? Are you sure? You still okay. You still okay. So it's all about consent. And I hope it makes a change, but has anyone okay, I have to ask you, ladies, has anyone done that with you and your and I know Jamie, you've been married and Joel has been married for a long time, but did you ever have those conversations? I know a lot of people. No, I never, I dated a lot of athletes, so and I remember like if I was trying to say something and I was being playful about something and said no, I've had it happen multiple times. They will jump off of me and be like no means no. No, I didn't mean it like that at all. They're like, I'm gonna get kimmed off the team. I gotta stop. Oh my God. Yeah, I don't wanna lawsuit. They do not want like, yeah, they do not want anyone trying to force them for money or something like that, and you're just like, oh my gosh, you're like, there's trauma there on the other end too, but it's a lot different than it is for women, but you're like, oh, okay. That was drilled in here somewhere. Yeah. That's good though. I mean, that's a good sign of progress, right? Or are you just choosing these guys? Yeah. But being the mom of boys too, I was just going to address it from that angle. It's like we do have to teach our boys the care involved and everything they have to do along the way. It's a lot of parenting that needs to happen. What were you going to say, Jamie? I don't remember. I think I know. Spur the moment. All right. Is there anything else you want to say about your book that was really important to you and writing it or a subject that you want people to know about? No. I think it's just, I'm really proud of it. I love it, but it's just, it's one of those ones, if you're interested in the topic, I recommend it highly, if not, use your way through it. Absolutely. Got it. No, I think it's got good things. And tell us about Alanis too. I know I talked about that before, but are you guys still friends? Oh yeah, she wrote the introduction for me to and try to talk about her experience being the time cover for the first time.

01:25:13 - 01:30:02

And it's really sweet. So it's just that's more, I just try to keep that private because she's such a private person. Right. Gotcha. Yeah, and she reached out to you because she saw you on the cover and knew what you might be going through. And has a similar background and parenting style and I love that, yeah. Very good. And then now you're married and trying to get pregnant. This is the next chapter. Good luck with everything there. I hope I hope it goes smoothly. Yeah, it's not going to be taking a long time, but it's okay. Maybe we won't be able to get pregnant. We'll just kind of move on from there. But we're going through a bunch of IUIs right now, which is like right before IVF. All these acronyms. Is inner uterine insemination. So what they do, very interesting. So they'll give me, which I ovulate on my own, but they just do it anyway just to cover all your bases. They give you something that makes you crazy, fully crazy. So ovulate so you can get sometimes there's more than one follicle too, so your chances of having multiples are higher. It's really not excited about it. But it doesn't work. Yeah, and they give you an HCG trigger shot, which is the hormone, the pregnancy hormone, and it's supposed to kind of ripen up the follicles and make the and then have them pop off. You have this egg, about 48 hours later, 36 hours later, they take your husband's or your partner's semen sample, and they wash the sperm. Yeah, they spin it and wash it, and then whatever is left is really a concentrated amount of sperm, there's no steam in last minute. And then they make you put it in your cleavage and walk to another room, and then they take this instrument and they stick it through your catheter through your cervix into your uterus and they plop it in there and hope it finds the egg. Wow. Wow. Yeah, the cleavage just to keep it warm and at that temperature. So oh my gosh. Back like gosh. Wild. Very sexy. Well, can you take video of this? Interesting. I do. I have all Friends with them. Well, it's always the people don't want to be videotaped. It's really not, it's like it looks like I'm getting a pap smear. It's really not that exciting. But we've taken pictures. I was me walking around with it in my cleavage because I was excited. Talking to it. Oh, that's good. You're already getting attachment parenting right there from the very beginning. Jamie, you were such a good yeah, there you go. You have such a good attitude. You sound like you're just resilient as hell. Yeah. And that's amazing. Do you feel that? I mean, are you just pretty joyful? You've done all this wonderful stuff. You've been through all those comments and I don't know. How do you feel? Is life good? Yeah, those don't bother me at all. I'm getting a lot of therapy, so I think that that really does help everything. And just life is, I was traveling nonstop up until about a year ago. And then I've now just been at home all the time and cooking and gardening. And so I think life is a little slow sometimes, a little too slow, but I think it helps regulate my nervous system. So it's good. Yeah, yeah. World traveler and doing a little bit of everything. I loved it. Kind of watching your journey and here you are now. So I'm very proud to see how you've grown up, Jamie. And I say that as your honorary big sister over here and the fact that our parents were kind of best friends back in the day. In fact, when I interviewed mom before this interview, she said that her only sources of support, really, when she had, well, more when she had Julian because she had just moved to California where your mom and Karen and that was it. Those were her two people and they would just call each other on the phone and so it's kind of like, here we are full circle. I think that's so sweet that my mom was my parents remember you guys being around. I think your dad went to go for like a summer to down to do acting and stuff. And so your mom was there with you guys and my parents hung out with you guys all the time and I think when ally were so close, but they were like, yeah, just making sure that your mom was okay when she was by herself and everything and it was just really sweet.

01:30:02 - 01:34:21

I think that they just really got super attached to everybody because you were a big part of the family. Definitely, yeah, Johnny was ally's or Johnny was I started again. What's wrong with me? Now I have pregnancy brain. Johnny was Julian's little buddy Allie was my buddy. You came along as chapter two and that was that was awesome. But yeah, there you go, Julian, you can blame dad. That was the summer he went down to LA to become a stuntman. That's my team. Leaving us. I thought he was trying to I thought he was doing like movies or something. Oh gosh, that's really dangerous. He worked at a ranch called zorthian ranch in altadena and as a day camp counselor a summer counselor in exchange for free room and board and then he could use their equipment to learn all his stunts, so he was jumping motorcycles. He was running on horses and falling off horses. He was falling off buildings and a big pads. And that was the summer he did that. So yeah, kind of wild, but thank you for your family for picking up the slack. Yeah, thank you. It was more just like, you know, they were just around. So it was just that was what his dream and he wanted to do it. And I think that they were everybody was supporting it and then just making sure you guys were okay. The village of sorts, yeah, we sure had fun. Well, Jamie, best of luck with everything and I love watching your journey and where can people find you that might want to follow along too. And get your book. Yes. I book, you can go to Amazon and find my book, and then also it's I think it's probably attached to my Instagram account, which is just my name. Which I think it's Jay grew me as my handle, but yeah, just look up the search my name and you'll find me. Yeah, she's fun to watch and good stuff and your boys are gorgeous and huge. And it's really cute. Good mom. I know such a good mom. We will put everything into the show notes, all of the links for everybody listening. So just scroll down to below this episode and you'll see them there and yeah, we'll go from there. But we love you, Jamie. Thank you, Jamie. Thank you. All right, talk to you soon. Bye. Okay, sounds good. Love you guys. Thank you for subscribing. Mouse and wieners are thriving. With your help with your help listen while you're cleaning you'll be melting weaning. Thank you for believing in our show thank you. Megan Joyce, Carla and Jodi. For subscribing to Patreon you are a Patreon dream come get your bounce and wings for dirty words and not have been and things that I need you can make it longer than we use had Patreon dot com backslash mouse and wings. Ever wonder why your kid won't listen? Ever wonder why your mom is so bossy? Well, we do all the time. That's why we created our podcast. Love these mother daughter talks with Brennan Flynn. Through a series of open and honest conversations, Flynn and I hope to deepen our understanding of each other and help other parents and children deepen their understandings of what goes on in their day to today struggles. And more. We are officially now in the pod fix network. Also, find us anywhere you download your podcasts. Flynn, I love these mothers under talks. Me too. Let's see you on our next episode. This was a podcast of the pod fix network. You can check out more shows like it. At


Jamie Lynne GrumetProfile Photo

Jamie Lynne Grumet

Author, Mom, Attachment Parenting Advocate

Author of "Modern Attachment Parenting." and advocate for parenting, adoption, and human rights, our friend Jamie was thrown into the spotlight in 2012 for her controversial TIME magazine cover, shown breastfeeding her three-year old son. With her background in anthropology and theology, Jamie is a wealth of information. She is married to Jacob Holland, lives in Northern California, and has two sons Aram and Samuel.